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A Shocking Experience With Arcemu

#1 User is offline   shadow322 

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 12:19 AM

Hello,

I started playing World of Warcraft since vanilla and today I still play retail although I'm not sure I like the expansion Mists of Pandaria. I remember the first emu I used was called "wowemu". Back then, I didn't get into retail TBC beta, therefor I had to figure out one way or another to tryout TBC and that's how I started to use Mangos because of their Burning Crusade sandbox. For about a year I ran a Burning Crusade server, it was somewhat popular, there was about 50 players always online. It was a really fun experience for me to manage a server and that's why I continued to use emulators although my server died when wotlk came out. I like to create "my very own world" of warcraft. Now, I must admit I do not have C++ knowledges, I'm able to understand the code but that's it. I wouldn't be good enough to create scripts, fix bugs and contribute to the emulator development. I do not plan to learn it either, I have basics PHP knowledges that allows me to modify the game through database. For me it's a hobbie, when it becomes too complicated its called a job. And I'm well aware alot of peoples have done an amazing job so peoples like me can enjoy the final result.

This being said, WoW emulation development has gone through many communities I believe : Mangos, Antrix, Ascent, Trinitycore... and so on. Arcemu seems to be the most updated emulator as of now. At the end of the day, all these peoples work on the same project but they change few things like in-game commands, how clean the script is written, gossips, tables names(lol), copyright(rofl)... and so on. I can understand why they do that. I guess they do that because it eventually needs to be updated. And that's why I found my experience with Arcemu frustrating.

Everytime I search something through Google, I land on this forum (or trinity) and the answer is either "Google it" or flaming. Once you have used ".tele" from Mangos for years, why the fk would you want to memorize ".rec port" from Arcemu instead ? Because some developer decided the commands categories were obsolete? I also have alot of trouble to find support regarding anything that is custom. They argue client is copyrighted, therefor we're not allowed to customize it. Meanwhile they contribute to build a software made in order to emulate a copyrighted game. Emulation is illegal. Blizzard has chosen to tolerate. Period. I also tried to use ".reload" command, which result a message calling me noob for not reading rev notes. Again, I don't understand why a developer would do that if not to btch? I mean, I don't even read retail patch notes and some developer who's not good enough to build his own game is going to tell me I'm noob because I don't read all of his useless revision notes? If you are going to disable a feature, why don't you just disable it? Did your ego need that? There is also alot of things I was able to do few years ago but that I can't do anymore. I cannot add a custom Graveyard, I cannot create a custom item either... apparently this now require DBC edits and DBC edits is "forbidden" for the stupid reason I mentionned earlier. I don't understand... if 2 years ago I was able to create a properly working custom item, why is there a big question mark on my item today? It's the same client..... Someone obviously fucked up something...

Anyway, that's why using ArcEmu was a shocking experience for me, I could continue but I think its enough now.
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#2 User is offline   dfighter 

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 03:23 AM

Hi!
Arcemu and the rest of the "emulators" as you call them, are very different in many aspects. It's not just names, and copyrights, the entire underlying software is totally different. Just because they do the same thing, they are not the same. Just think of M$ Office and it's competitors.
"Emulation" isn't illegal in any way. PERIOD. However hosting a wow server in the U.S.A is illegal. How fortunate that I don't host any such server, nor do I live in the U.S.A.
Also how could you possibly know what I am capable of? For your information, I can build *anything* I decide to build ( speaking of software ofc ).

As for your actual problems, the graveyard I don't remember, however I do remember that the problem you have with items is due to a restriction Blizzard added into the client, so no we didn't screw it up. This also means that your memory fails you, you weren't able to add custom items into Arcemu or any other 3.3.5a compatible server 2 years ago. That had to be a server for an earlier version of wow.
Also there are communities for client modifications, instead of swearing and attacking us, you should just find them, guess what using Google, and ask their help, not ours.

EDIT:
No one is forcing you to use Arcemu. If you don't like it, don't use it!
"The demand for free goods is infinite."
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#3 User is offline   shadow322 

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 05:24 AM

View Postdfighter, on 24 January 2014 - 03:23 AM, said:

Hi!
Arcemu and the rest of the "emulators" as you call them, are very different in many aspects. It's not just names, and copyrights, the entire underlying software is totally different. Just because they do the same thing, they are not the same. Just think of M$ Office and it's competitors.
"Emulation" isn't illegal in any way. PERIOD. However hosting a wow server in the U.S.A is illegal. How fortunate that I don't host any such server, nor do I live in the U.S.A.
Also how could you possibly know what I am capable of? For your information, I can build *anything* I decide to build ( speaking of software ofc ).

As for your actual problems, the graveyard I don't remember, however I do remember that the problem you have with items is due to a restriction Blizzard added into the client, so no we didn't screw it up. This also means that your memory fails you, you weren't able to add custom items into Arcemu or any other 3.3.5a compatible server 2 years ago. That had to be a server for an earlier version of wow.
Also there are communities for client modifications, instead of swearing and attacking us, you should just find them, guess what using Google, and ask their help, not ours.

EDIT:
No one is forcing you to use Arcemu. If you don't like it, don't use it!


Hello,

I appreciate your (half) kind reply, infact I expected to get banned after someone would read. The difference between Office and ArcEmu is quite obvious I think, ArcEmu is opensource. Not only is it opensource, ArcEmu Team didn't start from 0, you started off already existing sources. You are right, I don't know you and can't tell about your programming skills (especially if I don't know how to program myself), but what I can tell is that contributing to an open-source project that's already made is way easier than starting a new one and way_way easier than making an actual client for a new game. My purpose wasn't to attack you personally (again I dont know you), I am just mad about the elitism I perceive whenever I'm getting landed here with Google, but also within the emu itself. There is a culture of elitism within your community, peoples who know few C++ tricks appear to believe they're l33t and others are l33ch.

I don't really want to start arguement (although I will) regarding how legal it is to build and use a game emulator, but let me tell you that Odin got pwned hard by Nexon for reproducing MapleStory. Do you seriously believe you can just get in a court of law and get all charges against you dropped because you argue you didn't host it in USA? Stop pretending you're The Pirate Bay.

About custom items, it is possible I'm wrong and it comes from client, to be honest I didn't double-check before I wrote this but I remember I had made a frostmourne. I don't remember which emu had that, but there was a GM command in order to create GYs, I managed to find some C++ code snipet that allows to set them up. This was for example purpose, I could've mentionned autobroadcast mod, custom token or some more features making the emu less blizzlike in my opinion... since it's the way you appear to favor. I'm well aware that communities like ModCraft does exist, what I'm saying is that you purposely block peoples wishing to customize client because within your theory you pretend the server is legal and the client is illegal. Truth being said, the whole thing is illegal.
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#4 User is offline   dfighter 

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 09:41 AM

The contributing vs. starting from scratch depends.
If you are just going to "script" yes it is easier. If you are going to actually work on it, and improve it, it is harder, because you have to learn other people's coding style, you have to learn the "framework", you have to learn how already existing code works and keep that in mind when making changes.
There is a reason why there's a myriad of books on working with "legacy" code.
Also in the case of a game with the server-client model, most of the game logic is in the server, so basically we had to implement, and work with lots of things that are in stand-alone games too.

As for your legal argument. Again I am not a US citizen. I've never been to the US. I don't have a business in the US. US copyright laws don't apply to me, and most importantly I don't host a wow server. Never have.
You don't seriously think they can sue me for spending my free time on a server framework that happens to be able to communicate with the wow client?
Where are they going to sue me? How would a US court have jurisdiction over me if in the US?
Even if I one day happened to step on US soil. On what grounds are they going to sue me?
Arcemu contains no Blizzard property, and Arcemu neither provides game files, nor do we offer you any kind of service ( as in a server to connect to ).
It's just a software that can communicate with any client that supports the wow protocol.
It can work with any data, that is in the right format. So in essence, you can create a brand new game, using the wow protocol to communicate ( there are in fact projects that aim at creating a client )
Not to mention that without knowing the details and circumstances regarding that specific case, how could you possible compare Arcemu to it?

Btw the irony is, you come here and complain about how some features don't work as you'd like them to be, then argue the whole thing is illegal. Well good job, in case Blizzard were to ever sue you, basically you incriminated yourself and admitted everything...

Yes, you are wrong. Those question marks come up because the item id cannot be found in the dbc files, where the client looks for them.
As for the client modifications part, aside from it being illegal ( the client is blizzard property, you can only do things with it that they allow you to, messing with it's internals isn't one of those things ), have you ever considered that maybe we're just not interested in it?
"The demand for free goods is infinite."
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#5 User is offline   shadow322 

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 04:07 PM

View Postdfighter, on 24 January 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

The contributing vs. starting from scratch depends.
If you are just going to "script" yes it is easier. If you are going to actually work on it, and improve it, it is harder, because you have to learn other people's coding style, you have to learn the "framework", you have to learn how already existing code works and keep that in mind when making changes.
There is a reason why there's a myriad of books on working with "legacy" code.
Also in the case of a game with the server-client model, most of the game logic is in the server, so basically we had to implement, and work with lots of things that are in stand-alone games too.

As for your legal argument. Again I am not a US citizen. I've never been to the US. I don't have a business in the US. US copyright laws don't apply to me, and most importantly I don't host a wow server. Never have.
You don't seriously think they can sue me for spending my free time on a server framework that happens to be able to communicate with the wow client?
Where are they going to sue me? How would a US court have jurisdiction over me if in the US?
Even if I one day happened to step on US soil. On what grounds are they going to sue me?
Arcemu contains no Blizzard property, and Arcemu neither provides game files, nor do we offer you any kind of service ( as in a server to connect to ).
It's just a software that can communicate with any client that supports the wow protocol.
It can work with any data, that is in the right format. So in essence, you can create a brand new game, using the wow protocol to communicate ( there are in fact projects that aim at creating a client )
Not to mention that without knowing the details and circumstances regarding that specific case, how could you possible compare Arcemu to it?

Btw the irony is, you come here and complain about how some features don't work as you'd like them to be, then argue the whole thing is illegal. Well good job, in case Blizzard were to ever sue you, basically you incriminated yourself and admitted everything...

Yes, you are wrong. Those question marks come up because the item id cannot be found in the dbc files, where the client looks for them.
As for the client modifications part, aside from it being illegal ( the client is blizzard property, you can only do things with it that they allow you to, messing with it's internals isn't one of those things ), have you ever considered that maybe we're just not interested in it?


Hello again,

I don't think it is ironic as I do not pretend what I do is legit. If you wanna know, a close friend of mine and I once made a python private server for some flash game and received few lawyers letters (fortunately most of the time they're too chicken to take actions they claim, they're just trying to get the server shut down). Being in US or not doesn't change much. Although laws are not the same everywhere, it is fairly similar. They can reach you anyway, don't worry. Unless you're in Afghanistan or on some lost island. I live in Canada and the company I talk about was in France.

Now, if you say it is because you are simply not interested into customization, I guess there is just nothing else I can do but find it unfortunate. However, the disclaimer says your objective is educationnal purpose, but there I call bullshit. All blackhats communities will claim so. It's some way to protect yourself because you know you're not right (I say "you" but I realize you're probably not the one who wrote this disclaimer). Your "real" objective is to build a software so peoples can run a custom World of Warcraft server. I wish you were interested into client modding since it probably would push custom development to another step. I mean, WoW evolves so fast, no wonder why there's no viable Pandaria emu, but if you're going to stick to a version wouldn't it be a benefit for everyone to acquires more knowledges (as stated by the initial disclaimer) in order to know EVERYTHING about the game structure?
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#6 User is offline   dfighter 

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 09:44 PM

View Postshadow322, on 24 January 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

Hello again,

I don't think it is ironic as I do not pretend what I do is legit. If you wanna know, a close friend of mine and I once made a python private server for some flash game and received few lawyers letters (fortunately most of the time they're too chicken to take actions they claim, they're just trying to get the server shut down). Being in US or not doesn't change much. Although laws are not the same everywhere, it is fairly similar. They can reach you anyway, don't worry. Unless you're in Afghanistan or on some lost island. I live in Canada and the company I talk about was in France.

Now, if you say it is because you are simply not interested into customization, I guess there is just nothing else I can do but find it unfortunate. However, the disclaimer says your objective is educationnal purpose, but there I call bullshit. All blackhats communities will claim so. It's some way to protect yourself because you know you're not right (I say "you" but I realize you're probably not the one who wrote this disclaimer). Your "real" objective is to build a software so peoples can run a custom World of Warcraft server. I wish you were interested into client modding since it probably would push custom development to another step. I mean, WoW evolves so fast, no wonder why there's no viable Pandaria emu, but if you're going to stick to a version wouldn't it be a benefit for everyone to acquires more knowledges (as stated by the initial disclaimer) in order to know EVERYTHING about the game structure?

If I had done something that is against the law they could reach me. However I haven't.
Again We don't distribute any files that belong to Blizzard Entertainment inc, nor any other company. Also we don't host any private servers that would use such files.
Creating a server software that uses the same protocol as theirs isn't against the law.
Also ofc it matters where you are. Since most of the legality issues come up with the DMCA, which doesn't apply to me for example, as I am neither a US citizen, nor am I in America.
Not to mention that those legal issues come up when hosting such a server. So if you host a wow server, you are liable, not us.
But then again, I am not a lawyer. Granted I studied some law, since it's required for all CS majors, but that's obviously not the same.
So you are free to point out my mistakes, and show how Arcemu breaches any IP laws.

You can call bs all you want, but you won't be right, and it won't change anything. Comparing us to black hat "hackers" is a very wrong analogy. We don't gain access to anyone's computers.
Messing with the client also doesn't make one a better server programmer. It won't teach one how to handle the problems that arise in such an environment.
You are however free to create a forum of your own that deals with the client and custom stuff.
"The demand for free goods is infinite."
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#7 User is offline   Maven 

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 02:50 PM

lol.
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#8 User is offline   hampus 

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 06:34 AM

View Postshadow322, on 24 January 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

blackhats communities


lol.
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#9 User is offline   shadow322 

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 01:46 PM

View PostMaven, on 29 January 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

lol.



View Posthampus, on 11 February 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

lol.


See, that's the elitism I talked about earlier. Would you believe I received notifications into my inbox to read such flaming replies? If you know how to read you've understood english aint my main language. You'll have to come to me and compose something of similar quality in french before you can talkshit about how sounds the expressions I use, but of course you can't do that, you can only flame, you f*cking clown
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#10 User is offline   dfighter 

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 01:25 AM

View Postshadow322, on 11 February 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

See, that's the elitism I talked about earlier. Would you believe I received notifications into my inbox to read such flaming replies? If you know how to read you've understood english aint my main language. You'll have to come to me and compose something of similar quality in french before you can talkshit about how sounds the expressions I use, but of course you can't do that, you can only flame, you f*cking clown

English isn't my mother tongue either.
Yet I can read/write/speak it well enough I think.

Also I think you misunderstood them. I think They weren't laughing at your English. They were laughing at your argument, that is comparing Arcemu to black hat communities.
"The demand for free goods is infinite."
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#11 User is offline   shadow322 

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 01:45 AM

View Postdfighter, on 12 February 2014 - 01:25 AM, said:

English isn't my mother tongue either.
Yet I can read/write/speak it well enough I think.

Also I think you misunderstood them. I think They weren't laughing at your English. They were laughing at your argument, that is comparing Arcemu to black hat communities.


What welcoming on blackhat community look like :

Quote

XXX is a community of Security and Programming Enthusiasts who coexist to form a friendly and productive Forum dedicated to providing a fair, safe and enjoyable environment for it's members. We are focused on the teaching and development of Computer/Network Security and Programming within the Security Scene. Security through insecurity. Please feel free to join us at XXX


What welcoming on emulating community look like :

Quote

XXX is an educational non-profit organisation and we provide source code for running private MMORPG servers.
Our primary interest is to learn and teach each other (and our users) about development and project management on a large scale project.
XXX and it's many tools utilises a powerful variety of languages and technologies. These include: C/C++, VB.Net, MySQL or PostgreSQL as well as command line utilities to create and maintain game content and Bash, Python, and Ruby scripts to spice up development. All the main code repositories are currently held on github.


When I read this, I believe it's pretty close.
Also, here's the part of the EULA about private servers.

If you ask me which arguement is the funniest :

1. Someone who pretends to create a WoW emulation software without actually using it.

OR

2. "Educational purpose" is some bullshit to deny you're doing something that's not legit.

I think number 1 is way more laughable.

Quote

Additional License Limitations

The license granted to you in Section 1 is subject to the limitations set forth in Sections 1 and 2 (collectively, the "License Limitations"). Any use of the Service or the Game Client in violation of the License Limitations will be regarded as an infringement of Blizzard's copyrights in and to the Game. You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

F. facilitate, create or maintain any unauthorized connection to the Game or the Service, including without limitation (a) any connection to any unauthorized server that emulates, or attempts to emulate, the Service; and (B) any connection using programs or tools not expressly approved by Blizzard;...

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#12 User is offline   hampus 

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:14 AM

arcemu doesn't contain any code from the official servers so there is nothing wrong here



first you qq about not getting help then u accuse us of being blackhat hackers and now we are thieves O_o
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#13 User is offline   dfighter 

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:16 AM

View Postshadow322, on 12 February 2014 - 01:45 AM, said:

If you ask me which arguement is the funniest :

1. Someone who pretends to create a WoW emulation software without actually using it.

OR

2. "Educational purpose" is some bullshit to deny you're doing something that's not legit.

I think number 1 is way more laughable.

Pretends?
Can you link a site that is hosted by me and is hosting a wow private server?


View Postshadow322, on 12 February 2014 - 01:45 AM, said:

Also, here's the part of the EULA about private servers.

EULA isn't a law bill.
An EULA cannot make things illegal even in the United States.

Also a hacker who breaks into a computer system commits a crime.
Breaking the EULA is not a criminal but a civil matter. The party who breaches the contract / agreement can be sued on a civilian court by the other parties, if they are damaged and the court will decide IF they are really damaged and might decide that the breaching party should pay the damages.

Furthermore that EULA is incompativle with Hungarian copyright laws.
Even if you can prove that I violate the EULA ( which you can't since I don't host a wow private server, and you cannot prove that I've ever connected to a non-blizzard server, not to mention that you couldn't even prove that I've ever started the wow client ), violating the EULA isn't copyright infringement here. Even if Blizzard says so.
Not to mention that click-to-accept contracts / agreements aren't valid here. Therefore that EULA is invalid here in any case.

I find it very entertaining that you keep arguing with US laws when I am not in the US...

In theory ofc the United States government could send a Navy Seal group for me, abduct me and have me stand trial in front of a US court, but I have a feeling that it's not going to happen, just because you think I broke the EULA and/or TOS of Blizzard Entertainment Inc.
Just like Saudi Arabia isn't going to abduct me, and punish me for consuming alcohol. ( which is illegal there )

Not to mention the absurdity of you arguing the illegality of Arcemu, on Arcemu's forums, after asking for help.
It's like going to a drug dealer, asking for help about their products, then insulting them, and arguing that drugs are illegal anyways, because they didn't provide what you had in mind.
"The demand for free goods is infinite."
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#14 User is offline   hampus 

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:09 AM

View Postshadow322, on 24 January 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Hello,

I ran a Burning Crusade server, it was somewhat popular, there was about 50 players always online.


View Postshadow322, on 24 January 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

When I read this, I believe it's pretty close.
Also, here's the part of the EULA about private servers.

Additional License Limitations

The license granted to you in Section 1 is subject to the limitations set forth in Sections 1 and 2 (collectively, the "License Limitations"). Any use of the Service or the Game Client in violation of the License Limitations will be regarded as an infringement of Blizzard's copyrights in and to the Game. You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

F. facilitate, create or maintain any unauthorized connection to the Game or the Service, including without limitation (a) any connection to any unauthorized server that emulates, or attempts to emulate, the Service; and (B) any connection using programs or tools not expressly approved by Blizzard;...


View Postshadow322, on 24 January 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Truth being said, the whole thing is illegal.



omg
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#15 User is offline   shadow322 

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:35 PM

View Posthampus, on 12 February 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:








omg


wtf read other posts?

Quote

In theory ofc the United States government could send a Navy Seal group for me, abduct me and have me stand trial in front of a US court, but I have a feeling that it's not going to happen, just because you think I broke the EULA and/or TOS of Blizzard Entertainment Inc.
Just like Saudi Arabia isn't going to abduct me, and punish me for consuming alcohol. ( which is illegal there )


I agree all of that btw, thats why I'm saying you shouldnt care about EULA at all and support client modding
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#16 User is offline   dfighter 

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:38 AM

View Postshadow322, on 12 February 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

I agree all of that btw, thats why I'm saying you shouldnt care about EULA at all and support client modding

There are 2 problems with that:
a.) Modifying the client files isn't just a matter of EULA. It's their files, so they have copyright law protection on them.
b.) I've already said we have no interest in it. Modifying the client files doesn't get you experience in server programming.
I've also told you there are sites that deal with that, and that you should seek help there.
"The demand for free goods is infinite."
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#17 User is offline   hampus 

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:36 AM

what other posts ? too much bs for me
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